Chapter 7 and 13 Bankruptcy Blog

The importance of why obtaining this information from the client is essential because it could prevent you from unnecessary Adversary Proceedings filed against your client in bankruptcy. Read the rest of this entry »

Seminar Info:  http://www.713training.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=120

Let us begin with the visionary for the paralegal industry …

Jeannie Johnston, CEO of Paralegal Gateway http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeanniejohnston Founder and CEO of Paralegal Gateway, Inc. which is the world’s oldest and largest online Paralegal portal and Social Networking vehicle which includes a free career center, free paralegal articles (written by paralegals for paralegals), online seminars, demonstrative evidence, tools for Paralegals and much more.  Jeannie has also been a paralegal for 16 years.  Additionally, she has been a speaker at National Paralegal Conferences, is a Legal Sales Executive as well as a Legal Staffing Consultant.

experts on the CREDITOR side of bankruptcy …

Pamela Starr, CEO of StarrParalegals, LLC http://www.starrparalegals.com/ With 25+ years paralegal experience, StarrParalegals, LLC specializes in providing virtual bankruptcy assistant services specializing in bankruptcy and creditor’s rights.  StarrParalegals, LLC also provides expert services to attorneys, law firms and corporate legal departments.

Michael Misenheimer, Paralegal at Sicay-Perrow, Knighten and Bohan http://sicay-perrow.com/ Michael holds a Masters Degree in Negotiation, Conflict Resolution and Peacebuilding.  He also serves on the Board of Directors for the Georgia Association of Paralegals, the Pro Bono Director and as Community Service Coordinator. Amazingly, Michael has served in this capacity for many years and continues to be re-elected; due to the magnitude of the positive contribution he makes to the organization itself.  Additionally, Michael serves as Pro Bono Co-Coordinator for the National Federation of Paralegal Associations (“NFPA”.)

and for the DEBTOR SIDE of the coin …

Victoria Ring, Developer of the VBA Industry http://www.victoria-ring.com Not only is Victoria the developer of the virtual bankruptcy industry that serves DEBTOR bankruptcy attorneys, she is also the developer of the VBA Exam and founder of the National Association of Virtual Bankruptcy Assistants at NAVBA.ORG.  Victoria is currently working with attorneys in helping to establish new Chapter 7 and Chapter 13 bankruptcy law firms nationwide.

Clay Holland, Certified VBA http://713training.com/clayholland.html Clay is one of the top success stories in the virtual bankruptcy assistant industry.  He started his VBA business in June 2009 and by November 2009 he was making more money than he was at his fulltime job.  Prior to being a successful VBA, Clay had spent 20 years in the computer software business. He also had worked as a mortgage loan officer and is currently a licensed real estate agent.  Additionally, Clay has owned many home businesses over the years but when he found the VBA field, he knew this was the nugget of gold he was looking for.  At the seminar, Clay will reveal his success story and tell you everything he did to build a successful VBA business.

DO NOT MISS THIS IMPORTANT EVENT

This will be the ONLY seminar held in Atlanta, Georgia this year that brings FIVE industry leaders of the VBA and paralegal world together in one place.  Attend this important seminar and get to know these leaders on a personal level. To find out more information or to register, visit:

http://www.713training.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=120

SPACE IS LIMITED.  REGISTER EARLY TO ENSURE YOUR RESERVATION.

We all hope to see you there.

a lesson in client intake interviews and conflicting information

For the three weeks I have been working on one particular bankruptcy case.  Why is it taking so long?  The clients have been very difficult to interview and the husband and wife keep providing conflicting information.  Therefore, I decided to write this article to help you when you face the same problems, if you have not encountered them already.

The petition began like any other normal petition.  I entered the initial data into the bankruptcy software and compiled a list of questions to ask the clients.  When I called the client back I discovered the phone number the attorney provided was her work phone, so I apologized for the interruption and set up an appointment to talk with her after hours when she was at home.

The first problem I encountered was the inability to understand the clients due to their heavy Filipino accent.  However, I did my best to get the answers to some of the questions.  For other questions, the wife handed the phone to her husband and I tried to communicate with him the best I could.  However, the husband could not understand who I was and was very reluctant to talk with me.  I had no choice at this time but to end the interview, let the attorney know my dilemma and ask him how he wanted me to proceed.

It took approximately 2 weeks before the attorney had the opportunity to talk with the clients and inform them of my role.  I was instructed by the attorney to call the clients and finish the interview.  Hint:  If you are an attorney, you should always let your clients know the names of people who may call them to obtain information.  This way you save a lot of time for your office and staff as well as confusion for your client.

Finally, after leaving voice mails for the clients and eventually getting in touch with them for a second interview, I was able to conduct 80% of the interview in about 2 hours time.  The reason I was unable to complete the interview is detailed in my notes to the attorney which are provided below.  However, the debtor(s) did nothing but hurt themselves by refusing to provide me with the crucial information I needed.  Now the attorney has to spend time getting it before we file the petition.  So eventually, they will have to answer the questions whether they want to or not.

When you encounter situations like this, it does not always mean that the debtor(s) are committing fraud or trying to be fraudulent in their answers.  Instead, some clients are reluctant to answer questions because they are afraid it could get them in trouble, so they ask you or me to answer the questions for them.

For example: in one part of my conversation with the debtor, I asked him how much his family spent per month in food.  He said they spent $6,000.  You and I both know that this amount is too extreme and overinflated.  The IRS allowance for this family of 4 is only $1,370, so I immediately knew that this would not pass through the bankruptcy court without problems.  I told the debtor that $6,000 was much higher than the IRS allowance and that I needed a more realistic figure.  The debtor told me to make up any number that I needed to.  I told him that if I did, I would be committing unauthorized practice of law.  The debtor needed to provide me with a figure and that figure could not be $6,000.

But instead of trying to be sensible, the debtor became upset and started playing mind games.  He told me to try $5,000; but I told him this was too high.  Next he told me to try $4,500.  This immediately told me he was playing games and had no intention of providing me with an accurate figure to reflect his own household budget.  It was at this point that I stopped playing the game and told the debtor that he could discuss the matter with his attorney.

Remember: As a non-attorney, you should do everything you can (within your scope of power) to obtain the information you need to compile a well-detailed bankruptcy petition.  If the client refuses to provide that information or cooperate with you, do the best you can to get as much information as you can, then document details of the interview (as I have done below) and turn the matter over to your attorney. Ask your attorney how they want you to move forward and wait on their instruction.

MY NOTES TO THE ATTORNEY REGARDING THIS CASE provided for training purposes only

STUDENT LOAN ISSUES

From what I can understand, the clients have 2 sons with 2 separate student loans.  The first son (who is 21) has a student loan with Great Lakes for which the debtor co-signed.  This means that the debtor may need to start paying $300 per month for this student loan debt beginning in June 2010.

However, debtor claims that these are his student loans; however, he acknowledges that he did NOT attend school.  Because debtor did not attend school, the student loans must be in the name of the son who did attend.  I am sure that Great Lakes had to place the student loan in the name of the student, not the parent.  Yet, debtor says that I am totally wrong and became very upset.

Bottom line: We do not care if debtor wants to pay the student loan for his son who is able to work and pay his own debt; my ONLY concern is if the Chapter 7 bankruptcy will be over in order time to allow for this $300 monthly payment.  By allowing for this $300 monthly payment, Debtor’s income could be reduced on Schedule I; but the expense may not even be allowed by the court since the debt does not belong to debtor.  This is the part the debtor is not able to understand.  I do not believe the loan is solely in his name and that his son is the only one responsible for it; but if I am wrong, please let me know.

Since debtor is unable to clarify this information and provide me with a suitable explanation, I have NOT listed these loans since they are currently NOT due and at this point, are not in default and not the responsibility of the debtor(s).

DEPENDENT ALLOWANCE

The debtor(s) currently have both sons living with them.  One son is 21 and the wife said he has a job; however, the husband said he is still looking for a job.  The problem is, the 21 year old is NOT in school and therefore may not qualify as a dependent on the bankruptcy petition regardless of whether he is working or not.

However, the second son, who is 20 years old, is still in college and will not be graduating until 2012. Again, the student loan would not even be due until this date, yet debtor said he wants to plan ahead and include the amount in his bankruptcy.  In fact, he got angry because I told him the court may not allow for this student loan repayment and therefore I was not placing it on Schedule J unless the attorney advised me otherwise.  I tried over and over again to explain to the client that we were only concerned with TODAY not tomorrow; yet, he became more agitated and upset with me.

Therefore, I listed both sons on Schedule I but the attorney may receive objection from the trustee.  Hopefully the trustee will allow the son who is still going to college as a dependent but it cannot be guaranteed.  The clients both need to get their stories straight before they go to court.  You may want to counsel them only to say YES and NO and not to start telling stories since their stories are always conflicting.

GE MONEY BANK DEBT

The debtor(s) listed on their client intake forms that they had a debt owed to GE Money Bank in the amount of $6,194.47 but it was a credit card.  Since the account number they provided was not a credit card number, I talked with them about it.

I discovered that the debt was SECURE because they purchased 4 television sets.  However, the debtor was unable to describe the TVs to me.  I cannot believe that 4 televisions are worth over $6,000 unless they are of a better quality than the $800 the debtor claims.  First he told me the televisions were very OLD (but would not tell me how old).  Next he told me he owed GE Money Bank $3,000 but added some more stuff in January (less than 90 days ago) that brought the total to $6,000.  When I asked him what items he had previously purchased for the original $3,000 debt, he said it was for the television sets.  When I asked him what he purchased in January, he again said it was the television sets.

This conversation continued like this for almost 15 minutes and I tried every way to try and help the debtor understand that I needed a complete inventory of the GE Money Bank debt but he kept giving me conflicting information.

My thoughts: Since this debt is such a touchy subject, debtor may have purchased these items less than 90 days ago because he knew he was filing bankruptcy.  As you know, any debt made within the past 90 days could be subject to non-discharge and the clients may have to pay this debt or give up the televisions.

Please find out:

1.   A complete inventory of everything included in the $6,194.47 debt 2.   A complete inventory of any purchases made to GE Money Bank within the past 90 days, which includes January. 3.   A complete description (brand name and size of screen) for each television set 4.   The monthly payment made to GE Money Bank 5.   Are they behind in payments?  If so, which months? 6.   Do they plan to catch up the back payments or surrender the televisions?

THE RECENT FINE FOR SPEEDING TICKET

In general conversation debtor mentioned that he has a court appearance set for March 23 to appear for a speeding ticket.  When I tried to find out about the ticket the debtor refused to go into detail. The only information I could pull from him was the court date and the amount of the fine, which is $332.  I did a search online through PACER as well as the Los Angeles Traffic Court but I could not locate any records on this traffic violation.

Debtor stated that he already paid the fine but still he needed to appear in court.  I suggest you check this out.  If the $332 was the entire fine paid in full, it needs noted on the bankruptcy petition. If the $332 is only a partial payment, I need to know that also.  Additionally, I need to know the:

1.   Case number 2.   Case caption 3.   Parties in the case 4.   Date of ticket 5.   Name and address of the court handling this matter

ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS

Debtor could not tell me if he was behind in payments on the 2002 BMW.  If he is behind, he will need to catch up those payments before the 341 Meeting or a potential objection could be challenged by the creditor since this case will more than likely be a Chapter 7.  In the petition we have asked the creditor to accept a LOWER monthly payment as well as a CRAM DOWN.  The original amount owed was $14,474 on the 2002 BMW but the Nada Guides has a market value of $6,025.  We are saving the debtor(s) $8,449.00 but if they do not show a good faith effort to catch up any past due balances, the deal could be lost and receive an objection from the creditor.

If they are only 1 month behind in payments, this may not be an issue; however, debtor was unable to provide me with this information and became upset when I asked him the question several times so I gave up.

SUMMARY

I hope my notes help you when you work on future petitions.

– by Victoria Ring, Colorado Bankruptcy Training

I worked on a bankruptcy petition this week that involved a couple who had worked at the same job for 25 years.  They owned no real property and no unexempt personal property.  Their credit card debts totaled only $33,000 and they owned 2 older cars with very low market values.

What would be your first question when faced with a bankruptcy petition like this?

Your first question should be:  Why are these people filing bankruptcy? There has been no change in their income; they own very little and owe very little debt.  Something is missing from the puzzle and before I could go any further I had to find out what it was.

I immediately contacted the attorney by email as well as a voice mail (never totally rely on email) about the problem.  He called the debtors and found out that one of the reasons for the additional expenses was that their son graduated from college and they were paying back his student loans.

This is a typical example of an INSIDER DEBT in bankruptcy!  Learn how to recognize these and you will help to prevent fraud.

Although the debtors I prepared the petition for were probably honest people, many people could say that they are making the student loan debt for their son, when in actuality the son is making the payment and the debtor’s are pocketing the extra cash.  Creditors look for loop holes like this and this is a typical example of why bankruptcy cases are held up in court for many months.

Think about this: Typically, it is the son’s responsibility to pay the student loan debt.  Even if the debtors produce proof of payment that they actually paid the student loan payment, it would be impossible to prove that the son did not give them the cash to reimburse the payment they made.  This would give the debtors extra money each month to spend that the creditors would prefer to have.

Keep learning, take care and have a wonderful week!

Due to the rapid growth of the debtor bankruptcy industry, it has become necessary to separate 713Training and 713Attorney.

From 2004 to 2010 these companies served two separate markets. 713Training provides training and support for virtual bankruptcy assistants and 713Attorney provides training and support for the debtor bankruptcy attorneys.  For the past several years, Victoria Ring has been able to manage both of them with occasional support from virtual assistants she hired to answer phones and fill orders.  But at the alarming rate the bankruptcy industry is growing, a point occurred where the companies had to be separated or both of them would suffer.

Therefore, on February 1, 2010; Clay Holland of MyBankruptcyAssistant.Com will take over the management of 713Training.  Victoria Ring will then have the ability to direct her attention solely to the training and support of debtor bankruptcy attorneys and their law firms through 713Attorney.

HOW TO STAY CONNECTED TO VICTORIA RING

1.  Visit http://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradovictoria 2.  Click:  ADD VICTORIA TO YOUR NETWORK 3.  If you are not already logged into LinkedIn you will be asked to login 4.  When prompted to type in an email address, use:  victoriaring@lawyer.com 5.  Send the email invitation

If you are already subscribed to the 713Training LinkedIn list, by all means, DO NOT UNSUBSCRIBE.  Clay Holland works as a virtual bankruptcy assistant, who is also assisting an attorney in building his law practice; therefore, Clay has a great deal of knowledge to share with the group that will be beneficial to you.

I apologize for any inconvenience this change may cause but this is the procedure that LinkedIn has in place to prevent you from being subscribed to a network for an individual you are not interested in following.

Additional changes are being made to compensate for the rapid growth of 713Training and 713Attorney.  Make sure you stay connected for updated details.

Victoria Ring, CEO http://www.713Training.Com http://www.713Attorney.Com

** This article will help you to understand important basic information if you are an attorney just getting started or transitioning to the field of debtor bankruptcy law.

An attorney called me today.  She was in a hurry and wanted to know what software she needed that would prepare a bankruptcy petition in about an hour.  I told her that none existed.  She then proceeded to tell me about an attorney who had a software program that imported credit reports, filled in all the creditor addresses and did everything, including filing her petition at the press of a button.  I explained to her that almost all bankruptcy software programs perform these same functions; but there is no bankruptcy software program that is going to practice law for her.  She was disgusted at my response but it is the same response I get from new attorneys quite often.

Remember the old saying: What looks too good to be true, probably is?  All adults should know by now that anything that appears to be simple and easy actually requires a skill.  I wrote an article one time about how horrible I was at trying to bag my own groceries at the store.  I explained that even something that sounds like it could be simple (like bagging groceries) still takes a skill that is only learned by practice.

Therefore, every person reading this article needs to reprogram their brain to understand that no bankruptcy software program is going to THINK for you.  Software programs only make some jobs easier.  You still need to go in and check data, categorize it, determine priorities and much more.  No software program is going to do that no matter how much you pay for it.

HOW DID THIS RUMOR GET STARTED?  LETS EXAMINE A REAL LIFE SITUATION:

John Q Public is sitting at home watching television.  He hears the rumor (started by the new media) that he can save his home if he files a Chapter 13 bankruptcy.  John Q Public is 9 months behind on his mortgage and facing a foreclosure because he lost his job.  Mr. Public rushes to the phone to call Ms. Attorney and tell her he wants to file a Chapter 13.

Note: For those of you who work within the bankruptcy system, you already know this statement by the media is only partially true.  The media conveniently leaves out the fact that a person cannot qualify to file a Chapter 13 if they are unemployed and have no money left after paying their basic living expenses.  That is the catch; however, John Q Public does not know that.

Ms. Attorney, who, through a lack of training, offers to file a Chapter 13 for John Q, Public.  Ms. Attorney uses her bankruptcy software program to prepare the bankruptcy petition.  Ms. Attorney has little or no training in preparing the petition and she spends from 6 to 8 hours just correcting and adjusting information (that the software cannot do).  She was unaware of this when she purchased the software because she was under the assumption that it did everything for her.

Next, Ms. Attorney is overwhelmed by the fact that she has also not been properly trained in how to gather all the necessary information for preparing petitions, properly counseling her clients and how to filter out clients who do not qualify for bankruptcy and help them through debt counseling or some other form of assistance.  Without this basic knowledge, new bankruptcy attorneys are going to be in for a very rocky road ahead; especially since there is no software program that is going to do all of this for them.

What happens next is another nightmare.  After Ms. Attorney enters in all the income for John Q Public and his wife, John Q Public does not qualify for a Chapter 13.  In a situation like this some attorneys will try to still push the bankruptcy through by finding an income from another source or suggest the debtor get a part-time job so he or his wife can qualify to file a Chapter 13.

Or, if Ms. Attorney manages to get the bankruptcy petition filed by some other method, she will still risk extreme embarrassment at the 341 Meeting when she is in front of the client, creditors and the Trustee.  When the Trustee finds these issues and brings them to the table, many attorneys will simply stop accepting Chapter 13s or stop doing bankruptcy altogether rather than face this situation again.  This is sad; because the result was only caused from a lack of training and knowledge in building her practice.  Another old saying: An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

LOGICAL POINTS TO CONSIDER

If you are a seasoned bankruptcy attorney, I urge you to pass this information on to new attorneys.  In doing so, you and I are helping to improve professionalism and positive growth within the bankruptcy field.  If you are a new attorney, I urge you to study the following logical points:

1.   If a bankruptcy software program existed that could do all the thinking for you, why would someone need to hire a bankruptcy attorney?  Why not just buy the software and call it a day?

2.   If the bankruptcy court allows an attorney to charge $1,000 or more for a Chapter 13, do you not think there must be more work involved?  Some attorneys think the software does the work for them; but remember that the court does not just grant a large sum like this to an attorney without good reason.

3.   If you were going to open a pizza shop, would it be a good idea to learn how to make pizza first?  If you are going to start a new bankruptcy practice, would it be a good idea then to learn about the process first?  The least a new attorney can do is login to the American Bankruptcy Institute and view the free training videos at:

http://www.uscourts.gov/video/bankruptcybasics/bankruptcyBasics.cfm

Although these videos were made for attorneys to place on their websites to inform their clients about bankruptcy, they are still excellent in helping new attorneys understand the basics.  I always tell my students to study the law from a legal perspective as well s the consumer perspective.  It provides you with a better balance of knowledge that will carry throughout the life of your law career.

ONE SOLUTION TO CONSIDER

The videos from the American Bankruptcy Institute will NOT show you how to gather information from your clients, prepare the petition or run your practice.  That education has never been taught to attorneys and either they learn the skill through trial and error or from an experienced paralegal.

As the author of this article, I would be more than happy to talk with any attorney who is considering getting involved in the bankruptcy field. You can email me at: victoriaring1958@gmail.com

I hope this information helps you.

The following questions and comments were submitted through email to Victoria Ring. The answers are provided by Victoria Ring who is not an attorney.  Therefore, the information provided in this article is for training purposes only and no whole or part should not be regarded as legal advice.

DEAR VICTORIA:

I have a debtor that owns a home based business.  In addition to what her company grosses, she has paid herself a salary for the past 6 months from her business.  On the Means Test, do I have to average the amount she paid herself from the business (Line 3), and in addition, average the monthly net business income (Line 4)?  Or, do I fill in Line 4, only?  Please help!!! First time I’ve had this situation.   My attorney is waiting for Form.

RESPONSE FROM VICTORIA:

First of all you need to fill out the Business Income and Expense worksheet that is included in most of the bankruptcy software programs. If you are using Best Case software, scroll down to the VERY BOTTOM of the list of forms. There is a folder named SUPPLEMENTAL FORMS.  Inside that folder is a form named BUSINESS INCOME AND EXPENSES.

Fill this form out and make sure it is filed as an attachment to Schedule I when the petition is filed.

Take the AVERAGE NET INCOME (Line 23) and enter this figure into Line 3 of the Means Test.  If you refer to the form you will see that Line 3 states: Net Payroll Other Than Debtor.)  Therefore, you will NOT include the money the debtor pays herself from the business on this particular worksheet form.

Since we now understand this information, we can reasonably deduce that the money the debtor pays to herself needs to be listed on LINE 7 or LINE 13 of Schedule I.  Check with your attorney to be sure.

Also remember to remind the attorney that he or she needs to obtain 6 months of bank statements from the debtor’s business account as well as her personal account.  The attorney will need this to verify the debtors’ earnings reported within the bankruptcy schedules.

Note: In some states, the attorney will simply take the bank statements with them to the 341 Meeting and hand to the Trustee. In other states, when the bank statements are used as pay advices, they would need to be filed with the bankruptcy petition (sometimes the court even requires a cover sheet.)  Always check your local rules of procedure to address questions at this level.

DEAR VICTORIA:

The debtor is married but is filing as an individual.  I included the husbands’ income in the Means Test because they do not live in separate households.  My problem is that I am not sure how to complete the Statement of Affairs for the husband.  I put the wifes income for 2009, 2008, and 2007 but do I also need to include the husband income for the same years even though he is not filing bankruptcy?  I was told only put 2009 for the husband because its only this year that counts for CMI.  It just does not look right to me and I wanted to run it by you.

RESPONSE FROM VICTORIA:

They may do things different in California but in all the petitions I have done (if the husband is not filing) we would place the husband’s income under Item 2 of the Statement of Affairs.  It would be listed as Spousal Contribution.  The husbands income would also be listed under Schedule I as well as the Means Test.

However, you may want to call your local California Help Desk because I have found that California has many strange customs that is totally different from other states.  I learn so much when I visit California, so make sure you check out my response to make sure you are complying with the court rules.

DEAR VICTORIA:

This is my first bankruptcy petition and I need some help.  I am filing a petition for my client and I am in California.  As you know, this is a community property state.  If a husband and wife are divorced and living in separate residences, and the husband wants to file bankruptcy without his wife, will the wife be responsible for the debts that are discharged and the husband does not pay?

RESPONSE FROM VICTORIA:

I did a little online research and I found the following information at http://bankruptcy-law.freeadvice.com/consumer_bankruptcy/spouse_bankruptcy.htm which states (in part):

…. Community property and common law (also called “equitable distribution”) are the two types of martial property ownership. The vast majority of states apply the equitable distribution rules; nine states apply the community property rules. If you live in a common law property state, your spouse’s bankrupt estate will include his/her separate property and half of the jointly-held marital property. The non-bankrupt spouse will not have to worry about the effects of the bankruptcy on his or her separate property.